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Eileen:
Hello there, Gloria Myers Beller.

Gloria:
Hello, Eileen, how are you?

Eileen:
I am good. And I am glad. Here we are on a very first. First voyage. Of podcasting. Very first interview, I appreciate you being willing to take the private personal conversation we've had for years and risk making it public in this way with me and helping me right now launch this journey because. We don't know exactly where it's going to go or how. But it it feels compelling to take, you know, the the work we do in private, confidential. The years we've spent training, studying.

Eileen:
Working with colleagues, having deepening conversations among us about the nature of what we do and why and what makes the the the human therapeutic relationship. Therapeutic, I mean, I heard I heard Dr. Michael Eigen say recently, you know, there's help. And then there's help.

Eileen:
And, you know, in theory, it is critical.

Eileen:
Nothing takes the place of being who you are as a human being engaged in. A process, a conversation, a process, a relational process. With someone. And for the purpose. Of helping them to have a different experience. One that is involves their true, authentic, sincere selves. But, you know, beyond as we as we call it, the defense is, you know, beyond the fears, beyond the costumes, beyond the stuff, beyond the protection. There you go. There you go. You know, they come in so many forms that we all need. To live if we didn't have our protections, we, you know, we we couldn't make it. But when those protections come to compromise someone's freedom to be who they are and to know who they are and and and and love, you know, themselves and the people that are important to them and their world and and trust that there's, you know, some. Some way in this what seems like a crazy world, you know, increasingly maybe, maybe that's always been true. I was like to say nothing is new under the sun.

Eileen:
But this is the work we do behind closed doors with people deeply, personally, meaningfully.

Eileen:
And the risk for you and me right now is to be sitting here with these crazy these crazy headphones on and wondering if we're, you know, if the microphone is too close to my nose or just close enough to my behalf.

Eileen:
And, you know, we're just going to put the ball in play here and see where our conversation goes in and go with it. So.

Gloria:
My thought is you were talking was some you and I are on a virtual journey. This is our very first. We don't know how it's going to turn out between us. So maybe we can replicate in this podcast what we do in our office. There you go. You know, it's really true.

Eileen:
That's exactly the point. Right. When someone comes in, they're they're they're brand new to you or you've been working with them for an extended period of time. You don't know what's going to happen that our.

Gloria:
I don't know what's going to happen that hour, but what I focus on is trying to rid myself of any distractions so that can be president. In a most profound way, so that I can really hear.

Eileen:
And I want to I want you to take that microphone and move it just a little closer to your mouth. There you go. That's great. Is that comfortable? Yeah. Great. Is that better? It is better. Tell me something. When you say distractions that that's your aim, you come in to every hour as if it were the first. And just like we're sitting here right this minute and you try to remove distractions. What do you mean by distractions?

Gloria:
I mean, check in at anything in then Vahn man. Yeah. Maybe what the person is wearing. Right. Anything that for me could be something shallow that takes me away from the focus. For me, the most important person in the world in that room at that time. Uh-Huh. Because I want to enter the journey with the client. Cage we traverse together and really try to make sense of what ever their experience is.

Eileen:
Absolutely. You know, honestly, if I paused with the word distractions and I appreciate it, you're paying attention to the immediate moment. This office, you know how you feel and see encountering the person, how they're encountering you.

But but that's that's a big little word distractions. I mean, you know, in the in the year 2020, I guess we have to say this is New Year's Eve. It's just stunning.

Eileen:
Like we all know and and talk about it all the time, that technology has taken on a life in all of our lives, that it is its own giant and constant distraction, potentially. It's also an incredibly valuable and powerful tool. And you know, who disagrees that the challenge goes on being for all of us, right? Yes. No matter what age, we are old. Young. No matter who we are, where we come from, where you know that it's the challenge to use that technology in a way that works. But the human truth, you know, of what it means to be and become your own person.

Eileen:
Your own human being person is.

Eileen:
Not something that. Can be engineered and it is something that is a process.

And no matter what our theories tell us about a stepwise process of developmental timing and challenges and conflicts. I mean, the truth is that everyone's got their own story, correct?

Right.

Eileen:
So when you say try to remove the distractions, even if it's.

Eileen:
You know, the costumes someone comes in where they or their attention to your wardrobe, which I know happens a lot because you enjoy, you know, dressing in a in a in an artful way, artful, coordinated their artful, coordinated, uninterrupted black. I've heard you say. Exactly.

Eileen:
But then, you know, removing distractions in order to be present.

Eileen:
You know, I'm I'm sitting here with you and you and I and I'm thinking for someone else listening in, you know, are they going to think, oh, goodness gracious, that's therapist speak being present?

Eileen:
Do people do do lay people in the world? Talk about being present, you know?

Gloria:
Oh, you know what? They probably don't. So what? So what do we mean? What do you mean by being present?

Gloria:
For me, being president is trying to be my most authentic self. Where I am really listening, I'm really feeling. To try to be not judge mental, but just to honor where that person is. And to try to communicate in the clearest, purest way that I know about what is happening within me as I hear them and maybe what I think is happening in them, which could be correct or not correct. But I'm open to whatever the process is evoke in between us and we just keep going. But there is no right or wrong.

Eileen:
Listen, I'm listening to you. And again, I'm trying to think from the vantage point of of someone just meeting or just sitting down and thinking about the truth of what it means to be vulnerable, you know, to risk truth with someone and how sensitive we all are, really deepest down to being seen, to being missed, to being accepted, to being rejected, to being judged, to being to having someone be open like you're describing. But I'm thinking before someone has a chance to experience you and know for themselves that you mean to be that.

Eileen:
What how do you if someone comes in and they can't relax with you, they can't. They can't be present with you being present. What do you do?

Gloria:
Well, I often tell people the way I work is primarily affected. Like what I feel what I experienced from person, I trust that so much. So if someone is not able to relax, I will say I can sense that you aren't able to relax. You just say it. I just say it. And I don't know you. So I don't know what it takes to get you relaxed. But I'd like to explore with you how we can make this feel like a place that is safe for you just to put a little toe in the water. I see what that experience is like if it's not safe, pulled a total pack out of the water. If it does feel safe, maybe we'll put the front part of the foot. But I'm paying attention to that person's pacing because this is really about them and how they need to do.

Eileen:
There you go. Their process, their prioritize, their their story, their their reason for seeking your help.

Gloria:
And not being comfortable could be a great place to live for us to start.

Eileen:
It sounds like you can start no matter where someone's cut, wherever they are. That's really the point.

Gloria:
Just to honor what ever they bring in to the room. That it has value, even though we may not understand what the value is at this point.

Eileen:
Think I'm really struck with again is that whatever they bring into the room. So whatever your experiences in the moment with them, I mean, I know how many years of study and, you know, book learning and experiential learning and theoretical study and, you know, all the stuff that you've done to prepare and took him in. But it sure sounds in a semi spiritually true present moment kind of way. I want to call it that when you show up.

Eileen:
You mean to show up and just really be there and be listening and be experiencing, I guess, listening.

Honestly, you're missing and feel and feel.

Eileen:
So when you say affective, that's what we mean. That's a term, again, that we use. But that means emphasis on feeling and whatever the feeling is or whatever constellation of things, it's information. It's telling you something. Correct. And and you privilege that absolute. Even if someone started out saying, oh, you know, I've heard about you and you've done miraculous things in other people's lives, but there you sense that they're nervous.

Eileen:
You know, it sounds to me like that's what you're listening for, it's not the explicit content even of what they're saying, no matter what it is, whether it's you being great or or how great they are or, you know, or them commentators say, oh, I don't have anything to talk about today. That's a good one. That's perfectly OK. That's a showstopper, but not a show stopper. So. So you just. That's OK. And you sit and.

Gloria:
Something may emerge, something may not emerge, right. But that both feel important, right. Right.

Eileen:
Right. You know, it makes me think about. The sense of balance you have of a want to call it responsibility for what happens.

Eileen:
I mean, it sounds like you eat it by being present. You're acknowledging your side of being responsible for what's going to happen here. But that together with that, you you know that you can't. You're not responsible for both people that the person coming has a part to play in. Correct.

Gloria:
I often think about it as the nurse say this to people we're in. This is a partnership. That we are really in this to get there. I have a role, you have a role, and hopefully we can create a workable process.

So.

Eileen:
Again, I'm thinking in the day and age of measurable and observable and evidence based, et cetera, et cetera.

Eileen:
I'm hearing you talk about. Affect authenticity and presence. And I'm not hearing you talk about goals and promises. You know. How do you think about the point of the work or the or or the outcome of the work? You know, from the get go when you first. Me with someone. And agree to work. What? What's the star you're following? How do you how do.

Gloria:
That's really a tough question.

Gloria:
I believe. That if.

Gloria:
Therapy works. Your life will change.

That's a big statement. There's a huge state. And like, exactly what do you mean life and change?

Gloria:
While when I think of it and also think of psychotherapy as a process of becoming an expert on yourself, huh? And the more that you know about your cell phone, your motivations, your fears, you are in a place to make different decisions for yourself. And to me, as you make different decisions or experience things in a new way, your life has to change because you're navigating your universe center a very different way.

Eileen:
So I'm also thinking about the, you know, the world of self-help. You know, books and tapes and experiences and.

And.

Eileen:
And how many ways, how many people make the promise that they're going to change someone's life?

Eileen:
And I wonder, how do you assure, as you say, this if therapy works? You know, psychotherapy, where is going to change your life? What's unique?

Gloria:
Well, the power of what is unique is I'm not reading some prescription about what I need to do in order to change. What how therapy is different to me. Psychotherapy is different that actually in this experiment with another human being. So all the things that I may have read about now I get a chance to rehearse them. Huh? And live in to that active rehearsal with another person, hopefully that opens me up in a way that just mere reference material is a it is not able to give me as a live experience.

Eileen:
That's that's the emphasis on the word live and living seems critical and.

Eileen:
Talk about human and alive, you know, in the moment. Mm hmm.

Eileen:
It makes a lot of sense. Mm hmm. And so sitting here, I mean, I know you and we're friends and work colleagues for over twenty five years, which just.

Eileen:
Feels wild to me when I think back. It feels like yesterday in one way and in another way, I. It's not far from my mind. All kinds of experiences that we've shared in a personal and professionally doing this work. This way of being in the world, this vacation. Absolutely. So a lot has gone on that. I know. But but but only you know, you know where you started or what it what.

Eileen:
Moved you to pursue. The level of training that is necessary to work this way. I mean, when you go back to thinking about.

Eileen:
Urahn. Your own story, your own history.

Eileen:
At what point, very specifically did you say, you know what, I'm going to get a license and and and in a social work degree because.

Eileen:
I feel called to work with people this way.

Gloria:
It's really a fuzzy question for me because I don't know the exact moment. What I do remember as a little girl that my father would take my sister and I to the mental institution and back in those days, the chronically mentally ill just lived for ever inside of institutions and they would be out in the yard smiling and talking and we would just go up to the fence and have conversations with them. And it wasn't until years later when I thought I was going to become a special ed teacher. That was my passion. And I said in some educational classes, I found them so boring that I'm going to flunk out of college. I can't tolerate this. This must not be the way. This must not be the way for me, even though intellectually at thought it would be. And I decided to take a psychology class and get very intrigued. Ten, of course, found myself in every diagnosis that one could talk about. Right. Right. In the manual.

Eileen:
But sure enough, I mean, your father, for whatever it moved him to take his. Children to see that institution. I mean, that's in itself kind of a curiosity. But clearly it affected you deeply seeing seeing something with your eyes that told you that there's a lot of depth to being a human being. And it's not easy or simple.

Eileen:
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And it connected with the depth and, you know, I guess. And so, sure enough, when you tried something that felt. It's radically unsatisfying. You knew you had to go deeper, get more, so. So.

Eileen:
I imagine that the satisfaction you feel in the work. Confirms correct.

Gloria:
I made the right choice.

Eileen:
So and and and you and I both know that to earn your ticket, to work for yourself, to be a therapist, to be a therapist in independent practice is one thing. But the learning that comes from the experience of being an independent, not tethered to any institution or organization really on your own. And out there for doing this work with people becomes its own.

Eileen:
Education or its own?

Eileen:
And you know, what I really wonder about is when you reflect on it, how you think about how you came to believe what you believe.

About.

Eileen:
About clinical work, about, you know, what is it? What does it mean to.

Really?

Eileen:
Really listened to really reach someone where they are. And make that connection that can make that kind of difference. I'm imagining that there have been all kinds of people and experiences and influences that have gone into making your own belief system.

Gloria:
But where my mind went and I'm going to introduce this concept. I'm an African-American psychotherapist. Okay. And what got me really interested did is in graduate school. And also while working in a mental institution, I experienced a lot of anning total information about people of color. That made me do some questioning also in my training. For example, the thing that stood out for me was reading a chart and oh, this person has very poor eyecontact. Her great detail and in my culture, maintaining eye contact could be a clue to conflict.

Gloria:
Huh. Right. Like really staring someone down.

Gloria:
So then I became curious about the different cultural meaning which helped broaden my interest and to be able to also a tool to the client in a very different way because we're all a part of a culture. So what are you teaching me about your culture? Right. That I can hear you. Very different. And then the other flip side of this is being an African-American client, being seen by a white therapist in session one and a therapist says.

Gloria:
Mm hmm. So what's it like to be sitting here with the white therapist, huh? And I'm ga oh my God. It took on my guts to even sit in this chair, huh? I can't deal with such a profound question. Huh? Day one. Day one. Even though I could see the personal try to relate at could see what they were doing, but they had no idea what that impact her right was like. So what that has helped to me and hopefully as I work with people is not start with something so charge to just let it evolve in the process. It will come up naturally.

Gloria:
And for me, not a way as a patient. I felt the therapist. Was asking me to relieve them of their anxiety.

Eileen:
Right. That's how it felt, right? Right. And it sticks. And that had to be a few years ago. At this point when you were first in the first 36,.

Gloria:
Maybe 40 years.

Gloria:
Right. And I still remember it, huh?

Gloria:
That's taken us into a different frame, but it felt important to me to bring in the cultural peace.

Eileen:
There's so many ways of thinking about culture. And being with it. But you know what? What I what I'm really hearing you say, again, is something about the radical ness of individual. Mm hmm. Identity and app experience. And it is I hear the word culture. I'm thinking that it's a broad brush. For describing differences, but bottom line, when you sit down with anyone and you mean to be present and to be authentic in yourself and to be genuinely open to what's going to happen, that means trying to put all kinds of pre-set ways of thinking and judging and assuming to the side. Um.

Eileen:
However, I you know, I appreciate that, you know, that sensitivity to messages, um, and exploring.

Gloria:
Exploring the unique ness. A person's world, your world. That I get to see and experience you. In your meaningful and via where. I'm also the therapist, but I'm also a student learner because I'm being taught to you're teaching me. What do you mean by that? That. I think of the client is opening up and allowing me to intrude. There were all. Where I I'm being shown something that I may not have known that is really significant. A meaning full for them. And that way I've been appreciative of sort of this kind of. Unique opportunity.

Gloria:
To be in their world with them, where I'm also learning, not just interpreting, you know, clear again, sitting here with you and in this experience of the moment alive in the moment myself, still with a mixture of feelings just sitting here. I notice that I'm at one of the same time. I'm feeling self-conscious in a way. And, um, but I'm also feeling relaxed. I hope you are, too. It feels exciting to be doing what we're doing and it feels important even if it's pushing on the comfort zone.

Gloria:
It is definitely pushing us and my struggle to stay authentic in this process. Exactly. Exactly. And me with you and I found myself straddling the fence of, you know, thought and feeling and, you know, what's meaningful to do here and what's not.

Eileen:
But like the work itself, like like we said. But you know, something that just bubbles back up and up and up again is.

Eileen:
It and again, it's easy to say, but you know what? What makes it alive? You know, when you're when. How do you know you're connecting? What how do you know that your.

Eileen:
You know, not just having a commerce, you know, an encounter with someone that is taking you on a a goose chase of one kind or another, how do you how do you how do you how do you know when you're really connecting?

Gloria:
I think, you know, when you're connecting.

Gloria:
When you know you've touched the person, OK, and it come out in laughter. It could come out in deep tears. Uh-Huh. Uh-Huh. But it's really not about words. It's about the action. That derives crying quite emotional. I mean, why remote, genuine emotional? Yeah, I mean, genuine emotion. Genuine emotion.

Eileen:
Beyond the Sterrett, beyond the surface of graciousness or rolls or or standard storyline, you're looking you're not looking to invade in someone or intrude, but you are looking to make contact to touch.

Eileen:
And when you do that, you know, it's happening in.

Gloria:
The most powerful thing for me, what I know is happening. It doesn't really require words. OK. Just in an emotional joining that.

Gloria:
Drew, just being with each other in that moment.

Gloria:
Which is so incredibly profound and rewarding.

Eileen:
And this feels like more of the answer to what makes this unique. Because where else is there a chance, I mean, in the range of relationships and ways of being in the world and settings, you know, where else is there a chance to be for the purpose of being true without, you know, strings of one kind of relationship or another attached?

Eileen:
But the thing like sitting with you again and, you know, seeing you and and knowing you, but also sitting with you right this minute, I'm reminded you don't tire of this.

Eileen:
You don't tire of.

Eileen:
Being available for this way to be with people.

Gloria:
And not tiring is another way of being a life. Now, what is tiring is, at the end of the day, huh? I realized that I have been so a tomb. To what's going on between the client and her, that at the end of the day, I'm exhausted. But in the moment it feels energetic.

Gloria:
Exciting, huh? Powerful, huh?

Eileen:
And when you say exhausted, do you mean a bad exhausted or a good exhausted?

Gloria:
A good exhaust. I've been on many long journeys uh-huh, uh-huh. During the day. Uh-Huh.

Eileen:
Really showing up, really making a dent. I really having encounters, you know. How often do people often lay people, people outside of this profession often say to you, how do you do this work?

Gloria:
How do you do it? How can you listen to people? Why not? All day someone said to me, what? And how do you answer that? Actually, I failed her to her because I think the whole whining is about their suffering.

Gloria:
How could I not?

Gloria:
Pay attention. An honor to suffering. Whining feels so judging her. Of someone's inner experience, rather than understanding, there's hurt. This go to hurt and see what it's about.

Eileen:
I mean, just the word whining really does. Suggests that it's a self serving, you know, unnecessary waste of communication. But everything you're saying and what I know about how you work is that. And as you've said it in so many ways, you know, whatever is expressed has meaning. And in the way that it's being expressed and searching with that to explore it and be curious and learn more and make contact and to make it safe for the person to be able to be themselves and relax with you so that they can explore themselves. That's very different than just, quote, complaining or grousing or whining and just whining.

Gloria:
Yeah. And it's painful for me as a therapist to hear that because I think the person who said that doesn't really understand. Huh? Or are they capable of allowing themselves to whine? You know, a raise is painful, but it also raises questions. Because I feel like my role is to try to be as tolerant of what ever emerges.

Eileen:
So I'm thinking you just. You know, strike me as so open and so receiving and the strength that goes with being that way.

Eileen:
It moves me naturally to wonder what's the limit? You know, in this work, Will, when? Have you learned that? You need to draw the line. Ah, or close your door to someone. What?

Eileen:
You know, when is it not okay for you?

Mm hmm.

Gloria:
That's a really tough question. The thing that comes to mind. Is. Working with someone who's suicidal. Tell me and. I require. The person to enter into a daily contract with me as well, working to at least less live and to the question. Do I want to live? Do I not want. That the person continued to explore. The question is stay alive in it rather than if someone is saying, I cannot even contract that we can even discuss this. That's a line because I can't enter in to it with you if you don't allow me.

Eileen:
I mean, this heavy stuff and this is, you know, part part of the deal.

Eileen:
I mean, you know, anyone working with people like we do has to come in and out of contact with, you know, people who are really close theage to tell me something. Presuming that that just the word suicide is sort of synonymous with despair. I think. I think. Do you.

Eileen:
I mean, where there's just no hope, no vision, no desire or endless trouble, some kind of. You know, pull to call it destruction, call it throw life away, call it eliminate the, you know, opportunity and the challenge of being alive.

Eileen:
I mean, how do you think about that?

Gloria:
I'd think about it. Mm hmm. You know, this reminds me, I had a supervisor years and years ago who said to me that thought it was horrific at the time, but now at the 40 years I understand it, she said, you know, there are some people who just don't have what it takes to live. Mm hmm. That living is just too difficult. Like, what does it take? What does it take? What do you think it takes?

Gloria:
I'm not sure, but I'd know. If a person is just willing.

Gloria:
To share their despair with me. Give me summits, the spirit will walk and in despair to gather. I just think that there's a possibility that hope, some hopefulness might emerge. Is that someone walking through the difficulty of life not being alone? Might be just thread? To go another day. And I will work on it just going another day. Day by day, and I am scared to death because I don't know how it's going to turn now. But if this person is walking me with me each day, then we're not abandoning each other in that moment again.

Eileen:
You know, just struck with your respect for it. You know, I want to call it this person's existential truth that. It's not, again, right or wrong. Even at the level, you know, of of thoughts, of, you know, she wanted to end it. That that's meaningful in terms of where the person is. But it's it's. It's it's a great challenge to you because it it it's, um.

Eileen:
It's, uh. They're saying that they will or won't let you connect.

And.

Eileen:
It seems like it's you know, but I want to I want to see myself in my own discomfort here at home. And say that, um.

Mm hmm.

Eileen:
What I keep coming back to is something about understanding how you've developed your own. Belief system about who we are, how we are, what makes us, who we are and what helps when we get off track. And the thing that's coming through for me, I mean, is. Philosophically and psychologically that the power of the connection is everything.

And.

Eileen:
Maybe that's what heals and that's also what hurts, and when you're trying to reach and connect with someone at one and the same time, you're taking a role in the, I want to say, internal drama, you know, of their world in order to to to have access to. And access in order to have impact through for them to be able to experience you as well. How do you call it as a, you know, an on a novel and genuine.

Eileen:
You know, the person who's interested and caring. Who's not the replica? Period, end of story of early experiences in life or previous experiences in life. I mean, that's a real line to straddle. When you know that however you're being perceived. It's not necessarily who you are, correct. But you need to in order to connect with that. I mean, it's a real quandary, right? I mean, to connect.

Eileen:
You've gotta gotta see it the way they see it or you've gotta get on their Gameboy.

Gloria:
And be able, I believe, to be a container for the suffering.

Eileen:
Okay. And by container, what do you mean?

Gloria:
I mean holding it fast. That it's not all on them. We're sharing it. OK. Andrew and I were talking about suicide. I had the thought, well, maybe if. The therapist becomes a container, is able to hold some of that pain right there, maybe that can increase. The person's the client's ability to tolerate even more than they thought they could. Which is another action step that maybe is not as dire.

Eileen:
Right. So, again, I mean, I'm thinking about again, sitting here in your office. The place you do your work and it's you and me right now.

Eileen:
Instead having this conversation and. You know how much of how much people think about what goes on in psychotherapy from a place of either.

Eileen:
Fear or assumption? Or. Or or whatever. But what really goes on?

Eileen:
Is an emotional experience. Correct.

Eileen:
The way you do it, that's what you're here for you. You might have a DSM, you know, for on your table top, but you mean it when you say you're not coming in with formula or prescription or diagnosis or diagnosis or pre-set anything, even like the way that you know it. We talk about issues. Be them, you know. Symptoms in the more medical model way of thinking. I can't eat, I can't sleep, I can't get over this loss of this love or, um, issues at a in a broader way, like life challenges that are being met or not. I can or can't find the man of my dreams or I hate my job, but I can't leave it because I don't trust I'll find something else. I mean, no matter. No, no matter what it is that causes the suffering. Um, what I'm appreciating is that you're not thinking in terms of categories of experience, you're really thinking about this person very specifically and.

Eileen:
And emotionally.

Eileen:
You don't care if they're married or not or have been married, you know, 11 times, like I think I remember Larry King love King boasting.

Eileen:
How did it go?

Eileen:
Diane Rehm interviewed Larry King and she said, but but, Larry, you've been married that many times and two times to the same person. And he said, Well, Diane, I've got to do it until I get it right. Well, I get it right. So. But it but it's really true. You know that. That what you were just motioning. Oh, OK. Oh, OK. All right. Well, thank you very much. You're welcome. Can you tell me one? Just one more word about what it's been like to to do this for just one more minute?

Own.

Gloria:
First, anxiety producing. But later, it felt like go. We were sort of sharing a story and I was able to go in to my own experience and just really try to speak what feels like truth.

Gloria:
For me and to try not to do it in such an intellectual way that it wouldn't get in the way of, I think, the innocence of the human connection and this journey, the endless journey.

Eileen:
Helping me launch and just one one more thought or a word like did did anything surprise you or did you find yourself, you know, thinking or saying something differently than you have thought or said it before about this work? Or was it to just.

Gloria:
Chance to now, I was surprised where my brain took I was actually surprised to talk about suicide. That was not something I would have consciously, you know, brought in because it's such an and tense and scary topic. But it just kind of felt natural when you were asking me something about how far is the limit. And when would I know that that's as far as I can go. That's where it took me to a place that if. The personnel working with this not able to contract with me to gather in some way, I'm not able to do the work.

Eileen:
Well, it's the ultimate challenge, um, to to sit with someone who doesn't know their own primary faith in themselves and in the world and therefore the capacity of our effort to connect with them. That's that's there's no question. I mean, it's it's the ultimate challenge. We don't have the power. Um, but we can do our best to be a witness to the truth and connected. Respectful of. You know, of that reality, of that emotional experience at that kind of limit.

Gloria:
Right.

Eileen:
So that's it. Okay.

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